Value for Money?

[Ystranc]

I think the term is “all the gear, no idea” but then again I’ve nothing against people buying Gucci gear, it keeps people like me in work. A lot of the vintage pocket knives that I sell will never do anything more strenuous than open a parcel or cut string but the owner gets a lot of pleasure from having them.

 

[saxonaxe]

and then some bloke with a budget item out performs you?

About four years ago I used to be a regular Beater on a Sussex Game Shoot. On one shoot day eight Guns, two of whom arrived by Helicopter. This was a shoot attended by People like Jackie Stewart, ex F1 Champ, and others of that ilk, so not cheap. On Partridges one day, the Keeper Ian a good friend, was slowly losing his rag with the standard of shooting. He was never one to mince words with anyone, so he gathered the guns and said words to the effect that the Beaters were wasting their f.... time.

The reaction was sulks and complaints that the birds were impossible at that height and speed, coming off the Downs with the wind up their tails. Ian stalked off to his old Pick up, rooted around behind the seats and came back with his 'working gun' a 12 bore double Baikal, about £135 worth....
Two of the Pickers Up took their dogs up to a patch of Gorse and slowly pushed through it. Ian dropped 9 Partridges, all that were within range, while the Guns nursed their Perazzi Granditalias, Brownings, and one bloke a Churchill 25. These were people that spent hours and fortunes on shooting lessons too, they almost certainly shot more than Ian with his occasional pest control shot.

What's that saying about poor workmen and tools?

 

[Ystranc]

and then some bloke with a budget item out performs you?

About four years ago I used to be a regular Beater on a Sussex Game Shoot. On one shoot day eight Guns, two of whom arrived by Helicopter. This was a shoot attended by People like Jackie Stewart, ex F1 Champ, and others of that ilk, so not cheap. On Partridges one day, the Keeper Ian a good friend, was slowly losing his rag with the standard of shooting. He was never one to mince words with anyone, so he gathered the guns and said words to the effect that the Beaters were wasting their f.... time.

The reaction was sulks and complaints that the birds were impossible at that height and speed, coming off the Downs with the wind up their tails. Ian stalked off to his old Pick up, rooted around behind the seats and came back with his 'working gun' a 12 bore double Baikal, about £135 worth....
Two of the Pickers Up took their dogs up to a patch of Gorse and slowly pushed through it. Ian dropped 9 Partridges, all that were within range, while the Guns nursed their Perazzi Granditalias, Brownings, and one bloke a Churchill 25. These were people that spent hours and fortunes on shooting lessons too, they almost certainly shot more than Ian with his occasional pest control shot.

What's that saying about poor workmen and tools?

Someone has to keep the gun shops in business.

 

[Ark79]

There’s the right tool for the job , my old boy always said a bad joiner always blames his tools …… seen him a few times kicking the saw or calling his drill by a more blue’er name when said tool didn’t perform to his standards…

It’s like most things …. Some people see expensive things as a waist of money and some don’t… I think both opinion's are equally right..
I like a bit of “Gucci” but my wif thinks I’m nuts because I use them like I want to break them (and have lol) … iv had a pair of jeans that cost me over £100 for about 8 years and have used them at work in the garden, diy jobs … everything really there covered in paint oil etc … and there still going strong….to me that proves you get what you pay for as long as you know what your paying for lol

 

[Ystranc]

There’s the right tool for the job , my old boy always said a bad joiner always blames his tools …… seen him a few times kicking the saw or calling his drill by a more blue’er name when said tool didn’t perform to his standards…

It’s like most things …. Some people see expensive things as a waist of money and some don’t… I think both opinion's are equally right..
I like a bit of “Gucci” but my wif thinks I’m nuts because I use them like I want to break them (and have lol) … iv had a pair of jeans that cost me over £100 for about 8 years and have used them at work in the garden, diy jobs … everything really there covered in paint oil etc … and there still going strong….to me that proves you get what you pay for as long as you know what your paying for lol

I agree that it’s worth paying more when you know that the quality is far better, it’s also about the experience of owning and using something that is superb quality. The great thing about expensive jeans is that good manufacturers offer a range of different fits and styles that aren’t available in cheap “shonky” jeans.
The flip side of that is that most of the really good quality things that Louise and I own are old and were bought second hand (…and have already lasted a lifetime, probably because they’re good quality and have been cherished by past owners) These second hand, vintage or antique items almost certainly cost us less than most people spend on modern crap that is destined for landfill within a few months.

 

[Sharpfinger]

I agree that it’s worth paying more when you know that the quality is far better, it’s also about the experience of owning and using something that is superb quality. The great thing about expensive jeans is that good manufacturers offer a range of different fits and styles that aren’t available in cheap “shonky” jeans.
The flip side of that is that most of the really good quality things that Louise and I own are old and were bought second hand (…and have already lasted a lifetime, probably because they’re good quality and have been cherished by past owners) These second hand, vintage or antique items almost certainly cost us less than most people spend on modern crap that is destined for landfill within a few months.

Isn’t there a saying - ‘buy quality, buy once’ ?

I think that may apply up to a point (with certain items) but how far do you take the ‘better’ quality against increasingly higher prices?

And defining ’better’ quality can be so subjective.

I have some 5.11 shirts, cotton canvas. Purchased new - 40 quid! Hard wearing/good utility/domestic or field use.
They will last but I don‘t find them ‘the best’ because they dry very slowly.

In the field I use mil surplus shirts - poly cotton - 13-25 quid apiece! Hard wearing/good utility/field use only really.
They also last well and dry out well quicker than the 5.11s and I find them slightly more comfortable.

 

[38thfoot]

Yes but with 5.11 you’re paying extra for the ‘mercenary cool’

38

 

[Madriverrob]

Yes but with 5.11 you’re paying extra for the ‘mercenary cool’

38

Operator chic

 

[Sharpfinger]

Yes but with 5.11 you’re paying extra for the ‘mercenary cool’

38

You haven’t seen my field shirts 38 - coolest of any military in the world!

Even more so with me in it!

 

[Baytree]

Isn’t there a saying - ‘buy quality, buy once’ ?

Ties in with Captain Vimes theory on boots,

Understanding the 'Boots Theory' of Socioeconomic Unfairness

This is why poor people can't afford to save money.

moneywise.com

 

[Ystranc]

Ties in with Captain Vimes theory on boots,

Understanding the 'Boots Theory' of Socioeconomic Unfairness

This is why poor people can't afford to save money.

moneywise.com

Sir Terry Pratchett was an absolute star wasn’t he. It’s well worth the time to read all his books, even the kids ones.

 

[Baytree]

Yes I've read all the discworld books and some of the short stories and the Carpet People , all good. I was a little less taken with the Long Earth novels that he co wrote with Stephen Baxter , good idea but didn't really grab me.

 

[Ystranc]

Yes I've read all the discworld books and some of the short stories and the Carpet People , all good. I was a little less taken with the Long Earth novels that he co wrote with Stephen Baxter , good idea but didn't really grab me.

The 1st long Earth was ok but the second lost me. I used to be a bit of a Discworld anorak.

 

[Baytree]

Ystranc , at the risk of taking the thread way off expensive bits of clobber , what do you think of the television attempts at Pratchett ? The sky (?) versions such as Going Postal and the Hogfather seem pretty decent to me. The recent BBC series The Watch , while i enjoyed it , had a few problems i thought. Vimes seemed too much of an alcoholic , Angua in human form i thought seemed too grimy and not voluptuous enough and i can't see why the patrician was played by an actress.

 

[Sharpfinger]

Ties in with Captain Vimes theory on boots,

Understanding the 'Boots Theory' of Socioeconomic Unfairness

This is why poor people can't afford to save money.

moneywise.com

Interesting thought, especially the washing analogy, but perhaps not always applicable especially where modern day boots are concerned:

Take the current issue British Army boot which is also available on the civilian market.

It might not suit everyone but it is a top spec boot and cheap it ain’t.

It is accepted that in harsh conditions/use it may only last as little as 6 months!
And it’s Achilles heel? - literally that. The sole is composite, the outer is very thin and it don’t take long to wear through to the midsole.
Notably I’ve also had this happen to a pair of AKUs (same maker as the Brit issue boot) about 20 years ago and to a pair of Lowas recently which are a fairly similar boot. Admittedly the latter are over two years old but in my book (and apparently Cpt Vimes) that is not old.

If I’d invested in a cheaper pair of, say German surplus para boots with the one piece sole & heel unit I’d bet they’d still be going.

 

[38thfoot]

I’ve got scarps SL walking boots that are over twenty years old, the cuff is a bit scruffy but the leather of the uppers is still going strong. They cost in the region of £250 now but are immense; I’ve also got lowa patrol boots that were abused for ten years and are still excellent.

Military boots tend to wear out in military use because they end up wet and dirty for prolonged periods of time; they also tend not to be as robust as civilian walking boots (such as my scarpa) because we want to be able to run in them and robust equals heavy.

In terms of soles wearing out there are a lot of companies that can resolve them for not huge amounts of money extending their use.

38

 

[Baytree]

About 15 years ago the firm i was working for started to issue us with boots branded as warrior , well they also issued hi-vis jackets from the same Chinese manufacturer. You can probably see where this is heading. After barely four months of working inside a building , not out in the mud and wet , the sole and upper started to part company really badly . The firm initially didn't want to replace them saying we were only supposed to get one pair bit year but i played my face and got another pair which lasted a bit longer but still weren't exactly brilliant. The Warrior brand seemed to suffer from poor stitching as not only the boots failed but so did the clothing. Hi-vis strips soon fell off and seams opened up although i was able to re sew them and still have them now.

 

[Baytree]

Interesting thought, especially the washing analogy, but perhaps not always applicable especially where modern day boots are concerned:

Take the current issue British Army boot which is also available on the civilian market.

It might not suit everyone but it is a top spec boot and cheap it ain’t.

It is accepted that in harsh conditions/use it may only last as little as 6 months!

Having worked for a firm that did maintenance on mod properties and having a mate who worked for a different firm supplying pressings for both civilian and military lorries there's what i should call the Baytree theory which states that any firm will attempt to charge as high a price as they can get away with an will inevitability end up ripping off the government and thus of course the tax payer...

 

[38thfoot]

I once nearly got filled in at the gym when some locals (south Manchester) were complaining about the closure of BAE Woodford (the hone of the Lancaster) saying it was a disgrace and the workers had been let down. I pointed out that the Lancaster was probably the last thing they delivered vaguely on time and mostly working.

Landrover we’re a case in point who treated the MOD as a cash cow; it was the costings of the Wolf LR which basically forced the MOD to at least try and reform how they managed procurement.

38

 

[Sharpfinger]

I’ve got scarps SL walking boots that are over twenty years old, the cuff is a bit scruffy but the leather of the uppers is still going strong. They cost in the region of £250 now but are immense; I’ve also got lowa patrol boots that were abused for ten years and are still excellent.

Military boots tend to wear out in military use because they end up wet and dirty for prolonged periods of time; they also tend not to be as robust as civilian walking boots (such as my scarpa) because we want to be able to run in them and robust equals heavy.

In terms of soles wearing out there are a lot of companies that can resolve them for not huge amounts of money extending their use.

38

I too have some Scarps (and some Meindls) they are great boots and as you say robust if heavy.
They were used frequently when I first bought them, but that tailed off when I invested first in some Danners (not brill) then some Hanwag SFs. All were worn at least several times per week in detrimental conditions and usually just hosed off between uses.

The biggest failings were that they all suffered badly from nettle rash over uppers and separation of the rubber rand from the upper at the forward flex point which sooner or later led to the ingress of water.

The best solution I’ve found so far is the Le Chemeau LCX Kevlar reinforced upper but despite the manufacturer claiming that they’d solved the rand problem, on these too they are starting to separate.
AND - the sole is a thin composite type so I tend to be a bit selective about when I use them.

Yes, I am also aware of those companies who resole boots to a better spec - they wanted 80 quid to resole my old Meindl dessys, a bit too much for me I’m afraid.