Now for something different.... Bushcrafter vs Ranger?

[Rathwulven BC]

Hi guys.
We had some heavy debates lately at the Bushcraft Freunde collective due to a couple of conflicts happening between established bushcrafters and forest rangers as such.
I shot a video to that, see here:

I want to start a discussion in which you share your opinion on that topic as well as on how you approach land owners and state officials when going out. I also want to motivate people to start talking again, because the relationship between bushcrafters and ranger-type of folks is getting worse by the day in our region - even though both types of people share the same interest: The outdoors.

Please share your thoughts with me.

 

[Matt]

Will have a look when I get home from work and add my opinion

 

[Ark79]

Good topic will watch the video later

 

[Ystranc]

Good post Rathwulven. I have been on both sides of this discussion over the years and I can only say that you seem to be an exemplary bushcrafter. I've also met plenty of the other sort, the ones that I wouldn't consider to be real bush crafters...just vandals

 

[Ark79]

The common denominator in all facts you talk about are stupid or disrespectful people who have paved the way for landowners/rangers and alike to be of the mindset of suspicion and scrutiny.. it’s only natural I suppose! This kind of attitude developes a certain kind of training much like the police with profiling certain individuals....
however on the flip side we have to contend with high ego’s when someone gets a little authority over the general public.....this in turn has the same affects....from us to them.

Nature is freeland imo and belongs to those who bide there and the critters that inhabit it. We can’t stop pollution or folk without care....that’s where community’s such as this forum allows viewers or members to learn how to act appropriately toward others ie park rangers and alike. And a place to learn and watch others protect nature with the right practices.... I can only hope places like this forum and videos such as yours @Rathwulven BC will echo out towards authorities.

As for a good relationship between rangers and bushcrafter...well both would have to drop expectations a little...and I hope we do!


Great topic @Rathwulven BC i appreciated the effort and enjoyed your video

 

[Ystranc]

Nature is freeland imo and belongs to those who bide there and the critters that inhabit it.

I'm not sure I can completely go along with that sentiment, everything in the UK belongs to somebody whether it's wild or not....it is still considered to be property.
This is a matter of perspective and is the crux of the argument between land owners and bushcrafters. For the most part it is a simple matter of acknowledging the landowners rights, asking permission and agreeing some simple ground rules...when landowners say no it's usually because of bad past experiences.
We don't have allemannsret in the UK so a polite request, a little reassurance and perhaps a thank you as you shut the gate after you goes a long way with many land owners.

 

[Ark79]

Respecting someone’s property dose make all the difference mate and I also understand that the majority of land is owned by someone. And I agree fully on the matter of acknowledgment of landowners right. Also of the people who police the land

However all land is not owned and what hasn’t be acquired by money or inheritance is governed by local authorities ie council or government and that land belongs to the people of the uk. The right action of the government is protected our interest thats the true nature of there entitled positions. It’s this land I class as nature/freeland....land that’s my right to roam along with others..... sorry to get all patriotic ysranc

 

[Ystranc]

True, a lot of land is owned by local government or religious orders...it doesn't follow that it's open to be used for anything other than the purpose that the council has designated. Try camping on a playing field or having a BBQ in a graveyard, I've no doubt you'll experience an extreme reaction from someone or perhaps PC Keen turning up to ask you about the nice shiny knife on your belt. There are so many things that you can't do in a public space

 

[Spock]

I agree Ystranc as I've also been on both sides to some degree.

I've not bushcrafted since I was a teenager but have hill-walked for many years before the present "freedom to roam" legislation came into force in Scotland. Sometimes we were politely asked to leave, other times threatened with police action, but most times we were allowed to continue our hike undisturbed - even when on heavily gamekeepered ground (which most of the Scottish uplands are apart from heavy forested areas).

As a one-time hill keeper myself, I was fully aware of the problems some ramblers/hikers can cause - especially, the ones with no real love or respect for the countryside - these being (mostly) large groups of young lads with lots of alcohol. My instructions from the 'laird' was usually along the lines of "just keep an eye on them and make sure they don't light fires, but don't approach them alone", I was quite happy to follow his instructions.

 

[Ark79]

@Ystranc
Although local governments are owned by the people.?


Am not taking anything away from landowners who have worked,paid or inherited land and now own it and work it...this should be respected as there property and not only there rights should be respected but there wishes also.....

I also acknowledge the position that local authorities (that are paid to look after the interest of our land) have....to make sure it’s kept tip top and all above board

 

[Ystranc]

The argument about public ownership doesn't stack up Mark. Government or local councils may be elected by the people and large amounts of land may be in public ownership but there are limitations on what use it is put to...local government owned land (and common land) almost always has a designated purpose along with bylaws preventing use for any other purpose. Council employed rangers or park keepers are payed to maintain and protect it.
This comes right back to what Rathwulven was saying about other peoples perception of bushcraft and how a responsible bushcrafter should behave. Even if a bushcrafter is polite and behaves in a responsible way they would be breaking a bylaw or two simply by gathering wood, putting up a shelter or being there between dusk and dawn.
Moreover council employees would be unlikely to have the discretion to allow you to camp,

 

[Ark79]

Do not disagree mate I was only explaining my comment about what I considered as freeland and right to roam. As it stands I cannot roam and partake in bushcraft on this land as free as I would like.....and braking any law is not something I do even tho I don’t agree with it stretching the law Maby lol but not braking

 

[Ystranc]

Totally agree that it isn't fair or reasonable to lump responsible bushcrafters in with vandals, poachers or rough sleepers but currently that's the way it is.
In no way was I trying to have an argument with you either Mark, I was just giving the facts as I see them. It is probably easier to get permission to use private land than it is to use public land.
One point though, there are a lot of small parcels of land that are unregarded. Strips of land where the ownership is ambiguous. There is a stretch of wooded embankment along the edge of one of my fields that is owned by the highways agency (not the local council) this dates from when the road was a trunk road. Now the road is redesignated the highways agency no longer take any interest in the land but still own it. These are the places to seek out.

 

[Ark79]

A didn’t think you were mate and me neither

 

[Baytree]

I suppose I'm a bit of a fence sitter in this regards as I can see both sides. I enjoy a good ramble but always keep one eye on the fact of normally being on someone's property. I'll always try to walk around a field instead of through it if there are crops in that field even if the actual footpath goes across it.
One problem I can see is sheer weight of numbers. Leaving aside that don't care having a huge number of considerate hikers or whatever can still harm an area. Soils can be trampled and compacted and animal and bird life can be disturbed just by the numbers of people using the land. And if every considerate and responsible bushcrrafter were to gather dead wood for a fire that could strip an area of habitats for invertebrates and nutrients for plants.
Like so many things in life it's all about balance.

 

[Ystranc]

In this day and age there is also bio-security to consider. Hikers are capable of spreading infectious diseases or fungal spores from common land to field to farm in the treads of their boots. I disinfect my boot soles on a regular basis to ensure that I don't carry foot rot from hill sheep back down onto my land. Some diseases such as Orf can also pass from animals to humans. If you look at the eyes, noses and hooves of hill sheep you will usually see signs of an infection, it is all too easy to carry these infections back down the mountain and across someone else's land.

 

[1 shot willie]

Should the title be........... "Bushcrafter VS Ranger"??


Most of the problems that exist are due to the feral and irresponsible element of our society who care little for themselves let alone other people and their natural environment that they have the privilege to use and enjoy.

The problem is.....there are far more irresponsible users of our outdoor spaces than there are responsible and aware.
Gaining access/permission from landowners will become even more difficult as time moves on unless attitudes and practices change......all down to education......the difficulty is how to deliver that education to the element that just does not care.

Put yourself in the position of the Landowners and authorities who have to deal with the damage and downright vandalism left behind on the land by some.........and the time and cost involved in repairing and the cleaning up of it...........it is no wonder rules and regulations has to be put in place and permissions/trust become harder to obtain.

There are many conscientious/safe users of our outdoor spaces who will be knocked back by the irresponsible attitudes of others every time.

 

[Ystranc]

Another point I would like to raise, many council and national trust run properties rely heavily on volunteers to help manage their outdoor spaces. Volunteering and using your bushcraft skills to help them is a great way of building trust and introducing yourself. Teaching Cubs, Scouts and D of E about using the countryside responsibly could be a great starting point for those of you willing and able to teach.
If you want bushcraft to be accepted it may be time to get a bit proactive about it...there are a couple of bushcraft schools near me. The one at Rhayader is making a small fortune for teaching very basic skills, they're always recruiting looking for qualifications such as mountain leader as a minimum.

 

[1 shot willie]

Does anyone remember this?

Maybe we should start replaying this kind of thing again on the telly to engage and interest our young ones.....the future?...... Do you also remember Petunia at the seaside
When you think of the annual costs involved with cleaning etc producing and showing an adult version of this could help.....would need to be graphic and very to the point covering all aspects of caring for our outdoor spaces.....parks.......beaches etc.
An appeal for help and funds could be included.

 

[Ark79]

Not seen that before bill.

Teach them young enough to make a lasting impression. I bring my wee ones up to respect the outdoors just like I was

Both sides ....rangers and bushcrafters ....have bad eggs. And both sides get judged on that.

Little tip to anyone who encounters a ranger or landowner even a passer by looking for a chat....offer them a pew and a cup of tea....great way to brake the ice.....

Worth saying also....no matter the reason you are approached always remain calm. Teaching everyone to suck eggs I know lol...but it must be said for new starts to bushcraft

 

[Ystranc]

That should be the number one piece of advice for rangers as well...as my father taught me many decades ago...
"You can slide a lot further on bullshit than you can on gravel"
At least offering the ranger a brew might give you enough time to make one for yourself and let him see how you conduct yourself around your camp.