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Violence Erupts, Hundreds Hurt As Spain's Police Crack Down On Independence Vote

lonewolf

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saw some of this on the news channels, police brutality at its worst.
 
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Keith

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saw some of this on the news channels, police brutality at its worst.
Yes, I know this is not the UK or Australia, but I think it should help remind us that nothing is certain. Different people react in different ways to a variety of situations, & we all know that the government, any government, does not have the best interests of the citizens at heart. Given the right or wrong situation, any country can find themselves under martial law!
Keith.
 

lonewolf

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yes, even in the UK police have killed the wrong/innocent person, that Brazilian carpenter for instance- carlos menendes- was murdered by police on the tube because they thought he was a terrorist, he wasn't.
I cant imagine martial law in the UK, don't think we even had it in the war, different generation- law abiding even in the middle of a war, but its different now we have the "snowflake" generation.
 

lonewolf

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we only have about 136, 000 police and about 78,000 troops nationally so I think a national martial law is unworkable to any great extent, probably be confined to places like London, Birmingham, Manchester, Newcastle, after all the greater population live in cities these days , why bother with a few country yokels? which is what the ruling classes think we all are down here.
 
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Keith

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Well this is what worries me, some of our laws are even more restrictive than in the UK, there was a time when we followed the UK or you could say we were influenced by the legislation in the UK. But now we have gone beyond that. Pocket knives are banned in public places, I have carried a pocket knife all my life up until this law was passed. Certain firearms have been banned here. It is illegal to purchase or carry ANYTHING for the purpose of self defence. Recently there was two home invasions on farm properties, one of these farmers defended himself & his family by intimidating the intruder (who was armed with a knife & a wooden baton) with his unloaded rifle. The police came & confiscated his rifle & they are considering taking his firearms licence off him!!!
Practically every day here there is a violent crime, shops robbed at knife point, home invasions. In Australia every two minutes a woman is assaulted, either via a home invasion, domestic assault or on the street. In answer to domestic assaults which are rife over here, our government cut funding to many women's help centers & shelters & closed many down. As I said, the government does not make this legislation for the safety of law abiding citizens, so I have to wonder where this is leading!
Keith.
 

greenbear

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yes, even in the UK police have killed the wrong/innocent person, that Brazilian carpenter for instance- carlos menendes- was murdered by police on the tube because they thought he was a terrorist, he wasn't.
I cant imagine martial law in the UK, don't think we even had it in the war, different generation- law abiding even in the middle of a war, but its different now we have the "snowflake" generation.

I'm sorry LW but I am going to take issue with the use of the word murdered in this context. One has to understand the background to the case. Tragic as it was, Mr Menendes - whose name was Jean Charles de Menendes, not Carlos Menendes (who was the general in charge of Argentina's Falkland's invasion force) had outstayed his visa and was in the UK illegally. By a very unfortunate set of circumstances he was staying a flat in a hallway opposite a suspect for the 7/7 bombings. He matched the description of the suspect and was tailed from the flat, he vaulted the turnstiles at the tube station (i.e. to avoid buying a ticket - a fraudulent act) and ran when asked to stop. The Shooters (SO19) were given information that he was most likely their suspect and, given that he ran, they were instructed to stop him at all costs (and please be mindful that the 7/7 bombers had killed 52 people the day before, some of who were on a tube train). The mistake was realised and message to call off the stop was clearly sent, unfortunately the police radios did not work deep in the tube system and the massage was not received.

I do not believe calling it "murder" is therefore appropriate. It was tragic and an awful waste of a life - but it was a genuine case of mistaken identity - sometimes it happens (e.g the Stephen Waldorff case).

There have been police murders and an example that may have been more appropriate might have been Blair Peach.

Sorry to get on your case m8 - but it's what it is
 

lonewolf

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the previous labour government of Tony Blair banned fox hunting, something that has happened here for thousands of years, I was brought up in a city but even I can see the point when foxes are classed as vermin for the damage they cause to livestock but try telling that to someone who has never even been in the countryside.
now we have these knife laws, air rifles have to be licensed in Scotland- I wonder how long it will be before it happens in England? several swans have been shot by some idiot with a crossbow- how long before they are banned here?
 

greenbear

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I felt the imagery uncomfortably reminiscent of the first poll during the fall of apartheid in South Africa. Not something we would wish to see in Europe. The strange part of it is that the Spanish authorities must be fearful of an independence vote to be so violently opposed to it. It would surely have made more sense to allow the vote to go ahead and see what level of support for independence really exists in the region. I rather suspect that the independence movement has garnered more support as a result of the Spanish authorities' actions.
 

lonewolf

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I'm sorry LW but I am going to take issue with the use of the word murdered in this context. One has to understand the background to the case. Tragic as it was, Mr Menendes - whose name was Jean Charles de Menendes, not Carlos Menendes (who was the general in charge of Argentina's Falkland's invasion force) had outstayed his visa and was in the UK illegally. By a very unfortunate set of circumstances he was staying a flat in a hallway opposite a suspect for the 7/7 bombings. He matched the description of the suspect and was tailed from the flat, he vaulted the turnstiles at the tube station (i.e. to avoid buying a ticket - a fraudulent act) and ran when asked to stop. The Shooters (SO19) were given information that he was most likely their suspect and, given that he ran, they were instructed to stop him at all costs (and please be mindful that the 7/7 bombers had killed 52 people the day before, some of who were on a tube train). The mistake was realised and message to call off the stop was clearly sent, unfortunately the police radios did not work deep in the tube system and the massage was not received.

I do not believe calling it "murder" is therefore appropriate. It was tragic and an awful waste of a life - but it was a genuine case of mistaken identity - sometimes it happens (e.g the Stephen Waldorff case).

There have been police murders and an example that may have been more appropriate might have been Blair Peach.

Sorry to get on your case m8 - but it's what it is
the amount of bullets they pumped into him I call it murder, at the end of the day he was innocent of any terrorist activity, they -the police- only got it wrong because the copper who was watching the flat went for a piss and took his eyes off the ball so they followed the wrong person, the rest as they say is history.
 

greenbear

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the previous labour government of Tony Blair banned fox hunting, something that has happened here for thousands of years, I was brought up in a city but even I can see the point when foxes are classed as vermin for the damage they cause to livestock but try telling that to someone who has never even been in the countryside.
now we have these knife laws, air rifles have to be licensed in Scotland- I wonder how long it will be before it happens in England? several swans have been shot by some idiot with a crossbow- how long before they are banned here?

Actually m8 it hasn't, it's a populist belief that it has. Fox hunting originated as late as the 16th century (some say 17th) when the deer parks were closed off for the very wealthy and the middling elite wanted to continue hunting. The fox was seen as vermin, very much like today, and was an unopposed target, so it continued.

I won't disagree about mr fox being a pain in the neck in the countryside, but I have always opposed the idea of fox hunting with horses and hounds (partly as nobody has ever given me a reasonable justification for it). If the fox is stealing your chucks lay low with a hip flask and a.22 rifle and quietly shoot him. No need in my mind for "blooding" children and braying class boorishness.

Incidentally people aslo complain about the urban fox whilst dropping half their kebabs as they stagger home after pub drinking sessions. Cannot have it both ways methinks.
 

greenbear

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the amount of bullets they pumped into him I call it murder, at the end of the day he was innocent of any terrorist activity, they -the police- only got it wrong because the copper who was watching the flat went for a piss and took his eyes off the ball so they followed the wrong person, the rest as they say is history.

They had to make sure he was dead as the belief was that his puffer jacket hid an explosive device. You can call the copper watching the flat inept (although we all have to relieve ourselves at some point, and we do not know how long he'd been waiting). The important thing is that whatever the rights and wrongs of the case we should be mindful that a mother lost her son and nobody should have to live that nightmare.
 

Ystranc

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I felt the imagery uncomfortably reminiscent of the first poll during the fall of apartheid in South Africa. Not something we would wish to see in Europe. The strange part of it is that the Spanish authorities must be fearful of an independence vote to be so violently opposed to it. It would surely have made more sense to allow the vote to go ahead and see what level of support for independence really exists in the region. I rather suspect that the independence movement has garnered more support as a result of the Spanish authorities' actions.
They're scared of losing Catalonia because it's paying a disproportionately large part of the taxes going to Madrid. Without the support of Catalonian wealth the rest of Spain would start to break away much faster. It must be remembered that Spain isn't really one nation. More like a federation at what used to be kingdoms before Franco squeezed then together with an iron fist.
 

Ystranc

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"I won't disagree about mr fox being a pain in the neck in the countryside, but I have always opposed the idea of fox hunting with horses and hounds (partly as nobody has ever given me a reasonable justification for it). If the fox is stealing your chucks lay low with a hip flask and a.22 rifle and quietly shoot him. No need in my mind for "blooding" children and braying class boorishness.

Incidentally people aslo complain about the urban fox whilst dropping half their kebabs as they stagger home after pub drinking sessions. Cannot have it both ways methinks"

The Tallybont hunt is supposed to cover our area, they tried once but I let it be known that I had livestock and could they please stay off my land. (Mainly out of a personal dislike of them and how they behave)
For the most part country foxes have enough sense to keep their distance but occasionally some well meaning idiot arrives with a hire van full of city foxes to illegally release them. Those foxes are the "pain in the neck", they only know bin diving so they hang around close to human habitation rather then avoiding it.
 

lonewolf

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yeah we had urban foxes where I used to live in Plymouth, mostly after the KFC in the bins.
on fox hunting, I didn't move to the countryside and then start to tell country people how to act and what to do and what not to do, unlike most urban incomers, fox hunting is there for a reason but that never stopped an unwashed hunt saboteur.
 

lonewolf

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had them around the local abattoir the other week getting in the way of the farmers and the lorries.
how some of them didn't go under the lorries and get flattened i'll never know.
 

Ystranc

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I get sick of woolly hatted (and woolly headed) idiots who criticise me when I'm either shooting or trapping vermin such as rabbits, squirrels or foxes. I absolutely avoid causing unnecessary suffering and I'm good enough at it to pass up less then perfect shots. They're the same type of people that come up and harangue me when I'm doing tree work.
 

Keith

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Well I guess Le Reynard holds a lower position here because it is not native. But I do like seeing them around. I am less tolerant when they are after my chooks though. Where would Midsomer be without it's fox:)
Keith.
 

Ystranc

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Don't get me wrong Keith, if they're doing me no harm and leaving my hens alone I leave them alone. If I kill a fox that isn't bothering me another will soon move into its territory. The new fox may not understand my rules quite so clearly and go after my hens.
Many foxes actually perform useful functions like keeping down other vermin like rats, rabbits and voles. I lock my hens in overnight so they're usually safe. It's the city fox that is the occasional cause of conflict by being unafraid of human habitation.
 
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